ENHANCED 1814 Choice AU Large Cent Sold by Jesse Patrick

 

(See Bottom for picture of Reverse)

At the Baltimore coin show I traded roughly $3000 worth of coins (greysheet) for this 1814 Large cent from Jesse Patrick.  As some of you know a lot of the EAC guys do not like Slabbed coins.  I must tell you this experience has pushed me into the slabbed coin camp.

My contact with Jesse Has been limited to 2 emails (now 4 as of 11/19/13) in which he refused to talk with me.

Contacts as follows: All emails copied below last pictures.

12. 8th email to jesse @ 4:18 11/20/13 response to declined exchange

11. 4th email from jesse @ 6:45pm declined exchange

10. 7th email to jesse @ 10:50am 11/18/13 response to declined exchange

9. 3rd email from jesse @ 7:01pm 11/16/13 declined exchange

8. 6th email to jesse @ 9:31am 11/16/13 response to declined exchange

7. 5th email to jesse @ 12:34pm 11/14/13 response to declined exchange

6. 4th email to jesse @ 9:49pm 11/13/13 response to declined exchange

5. 2nd email from jesse @ 7:50pm 11/13/13 declined exchange

-called 1707-566-7450 @ 4:48pm 11/13/2013 left message-53 seconds

4. 3rd email to jesse @ 9:09pm 11/12/13 response to declined exchange

-called 1707-566-7450 @ 3:09pm 11/12/2013 left message-44 seconds

-called 1707-566-7450 @ 2:04pm11/12/2013 left message-26 seconds

3. 1st email from jesse @ 12:50pm 11/12/13 declined exchange

-called 1707-566-7450 @ 12:38pm11/12/2013 left message-29 seconds

2. 2nd email to jesse @ 2:59pm 11/11/13 asked for exchange

-called 1707-566-7450 @ 2:52pm11/11/2013 left message-8 seconds

1. 1st email to jesse @ 11/11/2013 11:59 AM asked for exchange (from iphone)

-called 1707-566-7450 @10:56pm11/10/2013 left message-57 seconds

SUNDAY AFTER RETURN FROM BALTIMORE SHOW ( DEAL DONE AROUND NOON) I was "unhappy with coin"- asked for return and for him to call me.

His First response cotained the following (his 2nd response to this was no better): 

 

Jess, I am sorry to hear you will not stand behind your coin. However you may reconsider if you think about the following:

  • There is NOTHING wrong with the 1814 Cent. It is totally as represented. It is a nice AU coin with a few surface marks which we discussed at the time, particularly the one near the date. You saw that, I saw that and the coin had not been "played with". I saw NOTHING on the coin to indicate that anything had been done to it and did NOTHING myself other than I told you.”

Reecy looked again at the coin today and under a microscope you can see residue of the wax in some of the gouges which were exposes by bushing. Also Stan Klein examined the coin this afternoon and found that the coin has been stripped and re toned in the past( that is, before I got it) by an expert.

 

  • I put coin care on the coin to remove the cloudiness that coins acquire from being left into a flip too long. If something had been filled on the coin then they would have done the scratch at the date and had that over with. I know where the coin has been for the last 15 years and just acquired it, like I said, at my last show. “

I asked you if the “coin had been oiled” due to the shiny area in front of the face. You said yes due to being in a flip. You said nothing about “Coin Care”. As to filling the scratch at the date, as I brushed it, it got larger.

  • You showed the coin to Leecy, who is very picky, and he liked it. Everyone that viewed the coin liked it. Having said all of that, I have no idea what the coin even  looks like at present.”

Reecy believes ,as I do, that we both missed the bag marks and scratches at the show because the “waxing job” was good enough to fool us (and others).

  • I don't know what you might have done to it although it sounds like it was something beyond brushing. Brushing coins just because is not a good idea and I don't care what Dr. Sheldon says. I would not do that as any sort of routine with large cents or any other copper. In view of the fact that I don't even know what the coin looks like anymore (I can't really tell from the pictures)”

A picture of the brush I used is attached, it is a new brush I bought at the show. Stan has carefully reviewed the coin and has concluded I could not have harmed or “altered the surface” with my brushing. It was done to remove the shiny area in front of the face and revealed the bag marks & scratches which were hidden by the wax.

  • I think it best that I look you up at FUN and see what can be done.”

I hope we can resolve this before then because of the lost revenue I will lose by your not returning my coins.

 

1:  1900-s 20 Dollar Gold AU Raw (Slider) Greysheet 11/08-ask au 1415 market value COINVALUES- au50 1840

2:  1917 Typ 1 ,25 Cent, ICG MS62 FH Greysheet OCT-ms63- 250 market value COINVALUES- ms63 300

3:  1884 3 Cent Nickel- Raw (possible Au/UNC Mint State) Greysheet -? au 1000 market value COINVALUES- au50 2000

4:  1814/13 Half Dollar EF Raw Greysheet feb- xf 315 market value COINVALUES- xf 1000

5:  1832 Half Dollar ICG AU55 Cleaned Greysheet 11/08-ask au 290 market value COINVALUES- au50 350

6:  1903-o Morgan Dollar ANAC AU55. Greysheet 11/08-ask au 320 market value COINVALUES- au50 375

  Totals 3590 5865

  • I am not willing to simply reverse the trade.”

As you can see from the above, not returning my coins will cause me significant financial loss.

 

In 7. you state “I had dinner last night with four dealers and explained the situation and they all thought that this was a done deal.”

I hope you will reconsider, ANA states that selling a coin which is altered is against their polices and allows a grievance to be filed.

 

Hi Jesse,

I would like to return the 1814 Au Classic head large Cent and have my 6 coins returned which we exchanged Sunday at the Baltimore Coin Show. 

My 6 coins are:

1:  1900-s 20 Dollar Gold AU Raw (Slider)

2:  1917 Typ 1 ,25 Cent, ICG MS62

3:  1884 3 Cent Nickel- Raw (possible Au/UNC Mint State)

4:  1814/13 Half Dollar EF Raw

5:  1832 Half Dollar ICG AU55 Cleaned

6:  1903-o Morgan Dollar ANAC AU55.

 

I found on, my return, that the coin had been "played-with".   I lightly brushed it (with a Horse hair brush), to removed the sheen we talked about, which you thought was a light oiling.

A wax came off the coin which was covering up most of the light scratches and gouges.  I 'm attaching photos of the coin which show how the coin looks without the wax filling the gouges.  As you can see the coin is not a high in EF or AU.

 

The coins above greysheets at over 3000.  This coin now greysheets at about 1400 and sells on Heritage for about the same.  Our agreement was for an exchange of like values.

 

Please call 305-389-5847 so we came work out the details of the exchange.

Sincerely,

Bill Sanders

 

 

 

 Emails:

1.

On 11/11/2013 11:59 AM, William Sanders wrote:

Jesse

I would like to trade it back to you, I am not happy with it. Please do not sell my coins . So we can make the exchange.

Bill Sanders

305 389 5847

Sent from my iPhone

2.

Hi Jesse,
I would like to return the 1814 Au Classic head large Cent and have my 6 coins returned which we exchanged Sunday at the Baltimore Coin Show. 
My 6 coins are:
1:  1900-s 20 Dollar Gold AU Raw (Slider)
2:  1917 Typ 1 ,25 Cent, ICG MS62
3:  1884 3 Cent Nickel- Raw (possible Au/UNC Mint State)
4:  1814/13 Half Dollar EF Raw
5:  1832 Half Dollar ICG AU55 Cleaned
6:  1903-o Morgan Dollar ANAC AU55.
 
I found on, my return, that the coin had been "played-with".   I lightly brushed it (with a Horse hair brush), to removed the sheen we talked about, which you thought was a light oiling.
A wax came off the coin which was covering up most of the light scratches and gouges.  I 'm attaching photos of the coin which show how the coin looks without the wax filling the gouges.  As you can see the coin is not a high in EF or AU.
 
The coins above greysheets at over 3000.  This coin now greysheets at about 1400 and sells on Heritage for about the same.  Our agreement was for an exchange of like values.
 
Please call 305-389-5847 so we came work out the details of the exchange.
Sincerely,
Bill Sanders
20415 NE 10th Ct
N. Miami,  Fl  33179

3.

Dear Bill,,

There is NOTHING wrong with the 1814 Cent. It is totally as represented. It is a nice AU coin with a few surface marks which we discussed at the time, particularly the one near the date. You saw that, I saw that and the coin had not been "played with". I saw NOTHING on the coin to indicate that anything had been done to it and did NOTHING myself other than I told you. I put coin care on the coin to remove the cloudiness that coins acquire from being left into a flip too long. If something had been filled on the coin then they would have done the scratch at the date and had that over with. I know where the coin has been for the last 15 years and just acquired it, like I said, at my last show. You showed the coin to Leecy, who is very picky, and he liked it. Everyone that viewed the coin liked it. Having said all of that, I have no idea what the coin even looks like at present. I don't know what you might have done to it although it sounds like it was something beyond brushing. Brushing coins just because is not a good idea and I don't care what Dr. Sheldon says. I would not do that as any sort of routine with large cents or any other copper. In view of the fact that I don't even know what the coin looks like anymore (I can't really tell from the pictures) I think it best that I look you up at FUN and see what can be done. I am not willing to simply reverse the trade. I had dinner last night with four dealers and explained the situation and they all thought that this was a done deal.

Bill, I know what I paid for that coin to begin with. It was a really nice coin. Don't just blow it out for nothing. Your 1400.00 valuation for that coin, as I sold it to you, is much, much too low.

Jess

 4.

Jess, I am sorry to hear you will not stand behind your coin. However you may reconsider if you think about the following:

  • There is NOTHING wrong with the 1814 Cent. It is totally as represented. It is a nice AU coin with a few surface marks which we discussed at the time, particularly the one near the date. You saw that, I saw that and the coin had not been "played with". I saw NOTHING on the coin to indicate that anything had been done to it and did NOTHING myself other than I told you.”

Reecy looked again at the coin today and under a microscope you can see residue of the wax in some of the gouges which were exposes by bushing. Also Stan Klein examined the coin this afternoon and found that the coin has been stripped and re toned in the past( that is, before I got it) by an expert.

  • I put coin care on the coin to remove the cloudiness that coins acquire from being left into a flip too long. If something had been filled on the coin then they would have done the scratch at the date and had that over with. I know where the coin has been for the last 15 years and just acquired it, like I said, at my last show. “

I asked you if the “coin had been oiled” due to the shiny area in front of the face. You said yes due to being in a flip. You said nothing about “Coin Care”. As to filling the scratch at the date, as I brushed it, it got larger.

  • You showed the coin to Leecy, who is very picky, and he liked it. Everyone that viewed the coin liked it. Having said all of that, I have no idea what the coin even  looks like at present.”

Reecy believes ,as I do, that we both missed the bag marks and scratches at the show because the “waxing job” was good enough to fool us (and others).

  • I don't know what you might have done to it although it sounds like it was something beyond brushing. Brushing coins just because is not a good idea and I don't care what Dr. Sheldon says. I would not do that as any sort of routine with large cents or any other copper. In view of the fact that I don't even know what the coin looks like anymore (I can't really tell from the pictures)”

A picture of the brush I used is attached, it is a new brush I bought at the show. Stan has carefully reviewed the coin and has concluded I could not have harmed or “altered the surface” with my brushing. It was done to remove the shiny area in front of the face and revealed the bag marks & scratches which were hidden by the wax.

  • I think it best that I look you up at FUN and see what can be done.”

I hope we can resolve this before then because of the lost revenue I will lose by your not returning my coins.

1:  1900-s 20 Dollar Gold AU Raw (Slider) Greysheet 11/08-ask au 1415 market value COINVALUES- au50 1840

2:  1917 Typ 1 ,25 Cent, ICG MS62 FH Greysheet OCT-ms63- 250 market value COINVALUES- ms63 300

3:  1884 3 Cent Nickel- Raw (possible Au/UNC Mint State) Greysheet -? au 1000 market value COINVALUES- au50 2000

4:  1814/13 Half Dollar EF Raw Greysheet feb- xf 315 market value COINVALUES- xf 1000

5:  1832 Half Dollar ICG AU55 Cleaned Greysheet 11/08-ask au 290 market value COINVALUES- au50 350

6:  1903-o Morgan Dollar ANAC AU55. Greysheet 11/08-ask au 320 market value COINVALUES- au50 375

  Totals 3590 5865

  • I am not willing to simply reverse the trade.”

As you can see from the above, not returning my coins will cause me significant financial loss.

In 7. you state “I had dinner last night with four dealers and explained the situation and they all thought that this was a done deal.”

I hope you will reconsider, ANA states that selling a coin which is altered is against their polices and allows a grievance to be filed.

Hi Jesse,

I would like to return the 1814 Au Classic head large Cent and have my 6 coins returned which we exchanged Sunday at the Baltimore Coin Show. 

My 6 coins are:

1:  1900-s 20 Dollar Gold AU Raw (Slider)

2:  1917 Typ 1 ,25 Cent, ICG MS62

3:  1884 3 Cent Nickel- Raw (possible Au/UNC Mint State)

4:  1814/13 Half Dollar EF Raw

5:  1832 Half Dollar ICG AU55 Cleaned

6:  1903-o Morgan Dollar ANAC AU55.

 

I found on, my return, that the coin had been "played-with".   I lightly brushed it (with a Horse hair brush), to removed the sheen we talked about, which you thought was a light oiling.

A wax came off the coin which was covering up most of the light scratches and gouges.  I 'm attaching photos of the coin which show how the coin looks without the wax filling the gouges.  As you can see the coin is not a high in EF or AU.

 

The coins above greysheets at over 3000.  This coin now greysheets at about 1400 and sells on Heritage for about the same.  Our agreement was for an exchange of like values.

 

Please call 305-389-5847 so we came work out the details of the exchange.

Sincerely,

Bill Sanders

5.

 Dear Bill,

Please don't call here anymore and threaten me. It does no good and does not make this situation any better. If you have anything to say, just put it in an email.

So far you have not accepted any responsibility for anything. YOU are the one that proposed what coins you would give me for the 1814 Cent. I just accepted your offer! YOU were aware of the surface marks as I pointed out in particular the one by the date. YOU asked a second opinion from your table mate who liked the coin. YOU are the one that went fooling around with the merchandise and messed it up. Right now I am thinking that you probably screwed it up pretty good. It was a beautiful coin the way it was. If the coin was striped then you did it! I can only suspect that you might have put it into some sort of solvent or something, maybe MS-70. or simple coin dip. By now you probably have the coin some shade of pink and want to return it like it is my fault. There was nothing wrong with the coin when I traded it to you. Who know what it looks like now!

As far as the valuation of what was transacted, you are trying to say you gave me 5865.00 for a 3590.00 coin! Who would do that??? Why would you inflate the value of those coins? I find your valuation of the six coins I received to be egregious. They are probably worth a little this side of 3000.00 and about the price I was asking for the 1814 Cent. I am talking wholesale now because we are both dealers, right. We should talk wholesale and not some pie in the sky retail prices. The 1900-S $20.00 is a common bullion coin. Look it up in the gray sheet. It is listed with all the other common dates. The 1814/3 Half Dollar is bid at 185.00 in VF and you have the coin marked VF+ but it is cleaned and has reverse scratches. You inflate it to 1000.00! The 1884 Three Cent you inflate to 2000.00??? You have it marked 600.00 on the holder. What are you talking about?

You know you can't just go fussing with a coin and then when it is a different color and coin altogether just return it for a full refund. That's not how this business works. You take a coin and fool around with it you own it.

Jess

6.

Jesse no chemicals of any kind have been applied by me.  I called you the first time one hour after I arrived home, saying I was not happy with the coin.  After a light brushing the coin shows hidden marks when the artificial shine was removed.  The coin is the same color I received it.  
Bill

Sent from my iPhone
 
7.
 
Jess, If you want to do everything in writing- NO PROBLEM.
Check out:
Bill
 
8.
 
 Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 9:31 AM
Subject: 1814

Jesse I have changed the website to show the exposed damage at the date.
check it out and call me.
Bill
305 389 5847
 
9.

 Dear Bill,

You know, we did that deal on Sunday at the Baltimore Show. I arrived back in California at 2.:30 AM California time on Monday. Monday was a holiday and by Wednesday you had this on the internet. I find that harassing as well as very hostile. I told you I would look at the coin at FUN and was going to try to work something out with you. However, you have taken this to the next level. Mark Schwartz, whose name I see in your emails, might have been a good intermediary in possibly resolving this. So far, you have not accepted any responsibility for anything. YOU are the one that proposed what coins you would give me for the 1814 Cent. I just accepted your offer! YOU were aware of the surface marks as I pointed out in particular the one by the date. YOU asked a second opinion from your table mate who liked the coin. YOU are the one that went fooling around with the merchandise and messed it up. As a dealer you should know better than to tamper with a coin and expect to return it. Then you sent me an inflated valuation of the coins I received, some even above what you had them marked, to make make it look like I took advantage of you! Due to the very unprofessional manner in which you are handling this, I have no desire to deal with you directly in any resolution.

Jess

10.

 

Jesse, Mark Schwartz came to my table Sunday (11/16) and we discussed the situation, (Because of the damage around the Date), he said he would not even give me the bullion value of the $20 Gold piece, let alone the other 5 coins.
 
 
Since our verbal contract as stated by me to you (with you accepting,  Reccy Aresty as witness) was for a like kind exchange of coins values, I wish to return the coins to you.
 
The contract we entered into on Sunday was for a coin which had been "oiled" not treated with the chemical Coin Care- which you did not say at the time (Reccy Aresty as witness). I would NEVER have bought this coin if told this was the case.
 
 
As to your inference that I caused the damage by lightly brushing the coin with a horse hair brush, I can get as many statmentts from expert dealers, as required, that my brushing the coin did not introduce additional damage. The statment I have heard consistently is that it exposed "hidden damage". Since we do not have a written agreement and since I did not get a written return policy from you at the time of the agreement, I believe contract law will support my postion ("Not industry standards").
 
 
ANA will not address this issue in mediation (costs 125 for filing) if a court case has been filed. Also in their Dealer Code of Ethics, they only allow 10 days from time of purchase for me to notify you that I am sending it in for grading. Since we do not have a written agreement and since I did not get a written return policy from you at the time of the agreement. I can only conclude mediation is out of the question.
 
 
I am willing to pay the costs for your shipping my coins back and my costs to ship your coin to you.
 
 
Mark has said (after seeing the coin) he does not "want to be involued". However, he may act as an intermediary for the exchange if you ask him.
 
 
Call me to resolve this issue.
 
Bill
 
305-389-5847
 

 

 11.


Dear Bill,

I do not appreciate the fact that you continue to harass me and disparage my reputation publicly amongst my peers. I had offered to meet you at FUN in an attempt to resolve this matter which you deem unsatisfactory in your email. I think the best legitimate solution is to submit this to ANA arbitration where a true unbiased decision will be made. I further suggest that whoever they find in favor of also gets reimbursed by the other for his fees. This is my final word and I will have no other discussion with you unless it is directly and only about the logistics of the arbitration.

My big question is, why would you alter "a very attractive coin" as stated by your friend Reecy?

 Jess


12.

 

 

Re: Enhanced 1814 large Cent

 
Jess,
This to notify you the Enhanced 1814 Large Cent is being sent to NGS/NGC for analysis and grading.
Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Bill,

Please don't call here anymore and threaten me. It does no good and does not make this situation any better. If you have anything to say, just put it in an email.

So far you have not accepted any responsibility for anything. YOU are the one that proposed what coins you would give me for the 1814 Cent. I just accepted your offer! YOU were aware of the surface marks as I pointed out in particular the one by the date. YOU asked a second opinion from your table mate who liked the coin. YOU are the one that went fooling around with the merchandise and messed it up. Right now I am thinking that you probably screwed it up pretty good. It was a beautiful coin the way it was. If the coin was striped then you did it! I can only suspect that you might have put it into some sort of solvent or something, maybe MS-70. or simple coin dip. By now you probably have the coin some shade of pink and want to return it like it is my fault. There was nothing wrong with the coin when I traded it to you. Who know what it looks like now!

As far as the valuation of what was transacted, you are trying to say you gave me 5865.00 for a 3590.00 coin! Who would do that??? Why would you inflate the value of those coins? I find your valuation of the six coins I received to be egregious. They are probably worth a little this side of 3000.00 and about the price I was asking for the 1814 Cent. I am talking wholesale now because we are both dealers, right. We should talk wholesale and not some pie in the sky retail prices. The 1900-S $20.00 is a common bullion coin. Look it up in the gray sheet. It is listed with all the other common dates. The 1814/3 Half Dollar is bid at 185.00 in VF and you have the coin marked VF+ but it is cleaned and has reverse scratches. You inflate it to 1000.00! The 1884 Three Cent you inflate to 2000.00??? You have it marked 600.00 on the holder. What are you talking about?

You know you can't just go fussing with a coin and then when it is a different color and coin altogether just return it for a full refund. That's not how this business works. You take a coin and fool around with it you own it.

Jess


On 11/12/2013 6:23 PM, Bill Sanders wrote: